The Conversation Continues

I apologize for not getting to this sooner. It has been a rather busy week as we are preparing for the fall programming that is headed our way. I thank you for your comments and look forward to this conversation moving forward. Blessings.

Pastor CJ

Old Lutheran said...

I understand your response to the first question and I appreciate the additional insight you provided. What really intrigues me is your comment that Luther and the other Lutheran church fathers felt that the Great Commission had been given only to the Apostles and had been fulfilled through them. How and when did our current view of the Great Commission come about?

August 26, 2009 5:25 PM

Our understanding of the Great Commission came about when we realized that the world we live in is completely different than the world they lived in. For Luther and the church fathers the world was Christian. A citizen of the state was also a member of the church. True, there was this new world that had been discovered, but missionaries would only visit the territories that belonged to the countries they lived in. In other words, you wouldn’t have a German missionary going to work in a territory that belonged to England.

I would argue that they misunderstood this verse. And when you consider their context it is understandable. However, the fact remains that the world we live in today is a very different place.

Old Lutheran said...

If I'm interpreting your answer to the second question correctly, you're saying that even though the Mormons didn't exist at the time of the Smalcald Articles, that once they did come into being, their systematic denial of the basic articles of the Christian faith as defined in the articles means they are by definition not Christian. Boy is that a long sentence.
Is that about it or did I miss the boat again?

August 26, 2009 5:29 PM

I think you got it. Mormonism would even agree with that. Because if you look at the story of Joseph Smith and his encounters with the beings from heaven, he was told that all of the creeds of the current churches were an “abomination.”

The confession of faith is important. But even that is a different way of looking at church than what was going on in Luther’s day. There it was much more political. So it didn’t matter if you knew what the church taught, as long as you played the game. Read Luther’s Preface to the Small Catechism. Very interesting stuff.

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August 26, 2009 5:29 PM

Old Lutheran said...

The phrase "live in sin" was meant to convey the ELCA's conscious and wanton disregard for the Scriptural prohibition against homosexuality in the priesthood. We have all sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, but most of us do not sin intentionally by thumbing our noses at Scripture. There must be a special place in Hell for people who are supposed to be Christ's emissaries on earth (Pastors) and who intentionally deceive their "flocks" by teaching doctrine that is clearly contrary to Scripture.
I wasn't implying that LCMS, WELS, Catholics and other Christians who continue to prohibit open homosexuals from holding the position of Pastor are better than those who don't. But this is a slippery slope that can't be good for Christendom.

August 26, 2009 5:37 PM

I agree that there is a slippery slope here. My point is simply this: when we are talking about such things, we should have those conversations humbly and respectfully. Disagree with another person does not give us a right to be mean or harsh. Even if we are correct and they are incorrect, that still does not give us the right to be harsh. We are obligated to speak the truth. But we must always speak that truth in love. And when we do speak it, we do so without sacrificing truth or love.

This is important for two reasons. One, it reflects how God treats us. We are dead in our sins. We are even enemies of God. He has the right to destroy us and wipe us off the face of the earth. And yet, he chooses to deal with us graciously. He doesn’t look the other way, but in his dealing with us, there is grace. The other reason is that we want people to be reacting to and struggling with the truth of God’s word, not our delivery of that truth. So if the deliver gets in the way, then there is no opportunity for the word to work, because it will not even be heard.

I hope this helps to clear things up.

Anonymous said...

Happy Birthday on Friday!

August 26, 2009 5:39 PM

Thank You!